Grammar: It’s Serious Business.

WARNING: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VIDEO GAMES AT ALL.

Whisking away the curtain of Negative Gamer: a writer (such as Peter “Surplus Gamer”) writes something and then an editor (such as myself) looks at it and gives feedback. Normally this process is pretty quick, but not this time; this time we ended up getting into an interesting conversation on semi-colons and  grammar in general. So it was decided that this should be shared. In the review of Brütal Legend by Peter ‘œSurplusGamer’ there is a sentence that was originally ‘œYou were different from who they expected you to be and they shunned you; some of them even laughed at me for wanting to be around you’. So here’s the conversation that sprang from that:

Me: “they shunned you; some of them”
comma not semi-colon

Peter: Seems like a classic case of two independent clauses of equal emphasis, to me. A full stop would have worked here, too (which is a half-decent way to check), but when I read it that way it seemed stilted.

Me: They were two independent clauses, but I thought that there was more emphasis on one side, if you think they were even then feel free to make it a semi-colon again

Peter: Yep, you have a point there. Perhaps the best compromise would be to incorporate a transition, something like “they shunned you; in fact some” which would emphasise the, uh, emphasis on the second part. I’d prefer that to a comma, I think.

Me: A comma would be easiest, trying to get emphasis even can be really tricky.

Peter: I’ll very happily defer to your judgement of what you think reads better, since it really isn’t a big issue to take up much of our time! Please, please feel free to completely ignore my own unnecessarily long and geeky thoughts about it below but I left them in because you never know, someone might be interested. :)

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Since there’s a lot of ‘editor’ in me, as well, here is my own thinking re: emphases and semicolons v.s. other punctuation marks:

I think the issue here is that some view the ‘equal emphasis’ part with more importance than others. I tend to come on the side that thinks that the most important justification for a semicolon (in the first type of usage that you mentioned) is that the clauses are independent but closely related in some way. After that point it really becomes more of an aesthetic decision about how the sentence reads in your head and I find it counterintuitive to attempt some sort of emphasis-balancing act when sentence flow is a higher priority. In other words in the decision making tree I decide thus: independent + related > sentence flow > distribution of emphasis.

In fact, if I’m going to get really deep and nerdy about it (and apparently I am) I’d suggest that an even distribution of emphasis either side of a semicolon tends to produce good sentence flow (or perhaps is a common symptom of good sentence flow), particularly in shorter sentences. However, some sentences, particularly longer ones, can flow best with a semicolon despite uneven emphases and so we shouldn’t feel compelled to stick too closely to an even-emphasis ideal.

So, for that one sentence my judgement was full stop: too stilted. Comma: not stilted enough. Semi-colon: seems more fit for purpose and improves sentence flow depite the emphases being marginally uneven.

P.S. I promise not to cause so much back-and-forth over a measly semicolon decision in future! It’s no biggie, of course, but I’ve never been edited before and I care enough about clarity/readability (Sorry: ex-philosophy-student) that I have developed a habit of near-compulsively self-editing. Therefore I have Opinions On These Matters and who better to inflict them on? ;)

Me:I’ve got a lot of writer in me so any geekyness about the English language is well received.

It’s a small thing and really annoying but the even weight part of the usage of the semicolon is a big part that makes it different from just a colon. The main way I try to tell weight distribution and if it’s even is if one side relies on the other. And if the two clauses weren’t in some way related they shouldn’t be in the same sentence at all.

As for reading flow, it’s very important and I get that, and sometimes it’s ok at break rules in order to achieve a really nice flow but that should really be avoided, especially when a colon or a comma often achieve the rhythm that’s achieved with a semi-colon. In those long sentences where semi-colons achieve nice flow if the two sides are uneven most the time a little rewording can put a bit more weight on one side, but that can be tricky and really tedious (which is why I normally advise to change the punctuation rather than to rework the content).

If you really think this is a case where breaking the evenness rule is worth it then okay, it seems the age old homage of “you can’t break rules until you know them” is well and truly covered.

As for as the editing process goes, a bit of back and forth -although it doesn’t normally happen in full paragraphs- so no worries.

I think I can blame school for brainwashing me to endlessly want to justify myself (Philosophy was probably a big contributer) I’m pretty sure my urge to look up examples of nicely used semi-colons can be pegged on English.

[Here Wardrox added Samit Sarkar to the conversation]

Peter:Although it seems to have grown into the wider topic of grammar in general. *Deep breath* Well, since we’re talking about it, I might as well do more tl;dr.

My take on the whole thing is that grammar rules exist generally in order to increase clarity and readability. Clarity and readability are king; grammar is a mere servant. Like almost any system of rules, they don’t always work – they’re rules of thumb, simple ideals that, if you follow them, will tend to produce a good result. Your stereotypical ‘Grammar Nazi’ (which I’m not accusing anyone of being!) is one who forgets what the grammar is actually for and sees it as an end in itself.

(N.B. There is something rather oddly circular and self-perpetuating about all this – things are generally readable when they conform to our expectations re: how they are structured (i.e. obey grammar rules). And grammar rules come from codifying the structures which make things generally readable. And round and round it goes, gradually refining itself over time)

Where the idea of semicolons seperating two independent clauses comes from, in part, is that doing so tends to produce clear, readable sentences like “Clarity and readability are king; grammar is a mere servant.” Or “A man chooses; a slave obeys.”

Where the emphases are different, there is sometimes another punctuation mark that would do the job quite well. Sometimes a comma would work (although I wouldn’t personally use one to seperate independent clauses because in my head it ‘sounds’ rushed – more on that later). A colon could do it, in the right context. Let’s not forget the dash!

And this is the point where I have to say something that often scares grammar fiends, which is that in many situations there really isn’t an obviously right answer and it is rather fuzzy and subjective and feelings are involved.

So to go back to my sentence: “You were different from what they expected and they shunned you; some of them even laughed at me for wanting to be around you.” You might be thinking with all I’ve been going on that I looked at the above sentence and thought ‘hmm, the emphases in those clauses are a bit imbalanced, but it’s marginal and I think the best and most readable way to do this sentence would be to have a semicolon in the middle, even so.’

While I can go back and analyse and rationalise why I believe a semi-colon works, though, I didn’t do any of that at the time. It started out as two sentences in an earlier draft and when I read it back, it ‘felt’ wrong and I decided to turn it into one sentence. Then, when figuring out how to connect them, it felt semicolon-y and sounded right in my head when I read it back. For all the rules I know and have learned, I’ve found that an extremely reliable method that almost always ends up with a readable piece is:

1) Write.

2) Re-read. Change bits and pieces that don’t ‘feel right’.

3) Wait a bit.

4) Go back to 2. Repeat as necessary.

Of course, I can always miss things, which is why later on Shauna picked up on another semi-colon and suggested I switch for a colon. I thought this was a great idea but not because ‘yes, that conforms more properly to the rules of grammar regarding semi-colon/colon use’ but because ‘yes, that feels better and makes it more readable.’ That both of those statements are true isn’t a coincidence but neither is it an inevitability.

I’m bored of listening to me, now.

Me: I normally see grammar as a means to an end of readability, clarity and sounding nice. Having overall rules that everyone understands, means that you can predict how it’s going to be read and following grammatical rules means the reader knows that they’re reading it how the writer intends it.
That said there’s times when breaking rules can be done well, the best example I can think of is in Only Revolutions (by Mark Z Danielewski) where he spells “forest” as “Forrest”, as in the guy who started the KKK and it was really fitting considering the book…actually he breaks A LOT of grammatical rules in that book and all of them really well.

I definitely agree with you about feelings. If you don’t have feeling in your writing, you’re doing it wrong. They are almost as vital to good writing as the words themselves.

I think grammar is to readability and clarity as a bread knife is to cutting bread, it does the job well, but you can use other things to cut the bread as well but it might not be as easy.

Onto the sentence that started all this:”You were different from what they expected and they shunned you; some of them even laughed at me for wanting to be around you.” I think the semi colon would work if it became:”You were different from what they expected and they shunned you; some of the others would laugh at me for wanting to be around you.”
That way both sides of the semicolon as directly related but are independent, so if you took away either side it would still make sense.

My process whenever I’m editing my own work, which I scrutinize much more than something written by not me:
1. Write
2. Read it
3. Fix anything that was bad.
4. Read it aloud.
5. If I stumble trying to say something, I fix it to work better.
6. Leave it for a few hours.
7. Repeat steps 2-6 until I can’t find anything to fix.
And even after all that there’s probably still problems that I don’t catch, that’s why there’s editors in the world.

Samit: Whoa, that was a lot of stuff to read through. So, um, yeah…semicolons: I like ‘em. :)

First off, I should probably introduce myself, since I’m unsure if you folks even know why the hell John copied me on this email chain. I’m Samit Sarkar, an Associate Editor at Destructoid, and I’m the site’s resident “grammar Nazi.” (I’m not the biggest fan of the term, either, but hey, that’s what people call us, I guess.) Also: Hello to Halfie, my fellow grammar Nazi!

Regarding grammar Nazi-ism, I’d definitely agree that the conventions of “proper” English should serve as a guideline toward the ends of clarity and readability. I won’t lie — occasionally, I do derive some pleasure from pointing out others’ mistakes and laughing at them (y’know, like the English Fail Blog does). But the main point here — the reason that people like me emphasize a codified set of “rules” for good written English — is to ensure that anybody who understands English will understand your writing (and that people like me won’t be prevented from caring about what you have to say because of a comma splice).

Anyway, let’s get into this.

“You were different from what they expected and they shunned you; some of them even laughed at me for wanting to be around you.”

Shauna/Peter, that’s an interesting point about “weight” — I’ve never heard that about semicolons, and so it’s never been a consideration for me in my writing. (As you might have noticed, I like to use dashes a lot, too.) The way I use semicolons is just to join two independent, but related, clauses in one sentence (which is the standard usage, as you guys have noted). Colons, as far as I’m concerned, should only be used if you’re following up an independent clause with a list or an explanation. Example: “Verizon has the nation’s widest 3G coverage: its network is three times as expansive as AT&T’s.” (Be careful not to write something like this: “My favorite games are: Uncharted 2: Among Thieves, Half-Life 2, and MLB 09 The Show.” Note that “My favorite games are” is not an independent clause.)

In the case of the original sentence, I think a semicolon works perfectly if the original writer (Peter, I presume?) feels that breaking up the sentence with a period doesn’t flow well enough. Obviously, a comma would make it a comma splice, and somehow, I don’t think a dash works as well as a semicolon there.

Thanks for letting me throw in my two cents, John!

Me: Okay so back to the original semi-colon in question, looking at it again if a small change was made making it:
“You were different from who they expected you to be and they shunned you; some of the others even laughed at me for wanting to be around you”
or something to that effect I think the two sides of the semicolon would be even and it would be good.

Peter: I’ll go along with that.