Interview With The Left 4 Dead 2 Boycott Group
We all have an opinion on it. Left 4 Dead 2 is coming out sooner than expected and some people aren’t too happy about it. The original game was said to come as “a service” rather than a game. Valve, the game’s makers, suggested regular updates were in the pipeline on par with those their other multiplayer game, Team Fortress 2, is enjoying. With the announcement of the game’s sequel, doubts have been raised over whether that content is still coming to the original game.
Fans were none too happy about the news and soon a Steam group titled L4D2 Boycott was formed, a group that passed the 20,000 members mark today. To get to the root of the issue and to get reactions to some of the criticisms aimed at the group, I spoke to one of the group’s admins, Mr.Pancakes.
NG: Who’s idea was the boycott and did you expect to see such a huge response (both positive and negative) from the gaming community as a whole? Why did you feel the need to organize yourselves into a group?
Walking_Target was the one who started the boycott at first. When it first started he created it for the purposes of giving people a place to vent their frustration about what was going on with the announcement of Left 4 Dead 2. As it progressed, we soon realized that it was much more than the few of us that had our reservations about the game. The people in our community needed their voices heard. That is when we decided to move things in more of a professional direction.
So far, I’d say the reaction has been mostly positive from gamers, and mostly neutral from big gaming sites. Sure we have people who have negative opinions of us, but we also have a large chunk of the community who agrees with what we’re doing. In fact, we get emails from people who disagree with our cause, but agree with the manner in which we’re going about fighting for it.
NG: With the limited information available regarding both L4D2 and the (supposed) on-going updates for L4D1, do you think it is fair to have reacted so early?
Absolutely. This is more about Left 4 Dead 1 than it is about Left 4 Dead 2 (although that is part of it). Left 4 Dead 1 was promised updates that should have been made by now. The SDK, which Valve has created only a beta version of thus far, was expected by the community within a few weeks after the release of the first Left 4 Dead. So far Valve has only made more promises to deliver on existing promises. Until those promises come through, we are, rightfully so, skeptical.
NG: Your steam group has now reached the 20,000 members mark, yet there is still a lot of anger aimed towards you. The biggest complaint I see is questioning why this matters. So, why do you care so much and why do you think other people care so much that you care so much?
I wouldn’t say there is a lot of anger aimed towards us. I’d say there is some anger aimed towards us, though.
We care about this because we like the quality of games Valve puts out and the standards they have set for supporting those games. They’re a great gaming company. To see Valve deviating from the model that we have enjoyed with other Valve titles, like Team Fortress 2, is concerning. It is a double standard which Valve is applying towards their other titles and we feel this standard has yet to be truly applied with Left 4 Dead 1.
NG: As your group has grown in notoriety, I’ve noticed you’ve updated your concerns to no longer reference the music, daytime setting or character designs as issues. Is this because somebody pointed out that the fat black guy looks like Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince of Bel Air?
He does kind of look like him, doesn’t he? I never personally realized that until now, but no that isn’t the reason.
We changed our manifesto because we wanted to keep it in line with what most people in the community had concerns about. The first manifesto was there from the beginning. It contained our gut reactions to the new game and why we disliked it. But as the community grew, people began to focus their concerns on the content issues with Left 4 Dead 1 and the timing of Left 4 Dead 2, more than the fiddle-music or the visual aspects of Left 4 Dead 2. It became more about Left 4 Dead 1, and many of our members wanted us to drop the complaints about the fiddle-music and the Left 4 Dead 2 aesthetic.
NG: Do you think the original L4D game (if all free DLC stopped now) was worth the price you paid for it?
I would say that some people within our community have said “no” to that question when it has come up, and feel that they bought Left 4 Dead 1 under the impression that it would have been supported in a more timely manner. Many of our members see Team Fortress 2, which was a $20 game, as far better supported than Left 4 Dead, which was a $50 game. The timing of Left 4 Dead 2 also has been a part, but not nearly the largest part, of why some people feel Left 4 Dead 1 may not have been worth purchasing.
NG: Has anyone from Valve spoken to you directly? If so, what was said?
We have talked with Valve staff, but very briefly. Nothing very substantial has been said to us from Valve. Although we did send them an email a few days back detailing some of our concerns, along with a copy of our new manifesto which was recently posted. We are still awaiting a reply from Valve.
NG: What compromises would you be happy to settle for and what (if any) compromises do you think Valve are likely to offer?
This is going to be an ongoing process in which we want to work with Valve. We would like to meet as many of our requests in our manifesto as possible. While I cannot say what Valve will offer, I do think Valve wants to make their community happy and will try to address these issues.
NG: Where do you see the group going, and what action do you see happening in the near future? What are your near-term goals and how will you reach them?
In the near future we hope to be actively talking with Valve representatives in trying to address these issues. What is going to make this successful for both us and Valve is good communication, and that is what we hope to establish in these next few weeks. That is our first goal.
Journalism!
Wow! An article that is straight forward, an interview and NOT bias?! amazing, most articles go straight to bashing the group.
What a wonderful interview. It really is the first news posting that doesn’t seem completely biased against the group, and adresses the most valid concerns around it.
Many of us believe that the updates and improvements could have been implemented into L4D1, and therefore would keep the community whole. This should have been released as a $15-20 expansion pack to L4D1, and not as a full $50 sequel.
There’s also the issue of paying $50 for L4D1, which was never fully developed to its potential. Many call the game Left 1/2 Done.
If it must be released as a full sequel, then L4D1 owners should automatically get a 50% discount not to exceed $25.
Not to be *ahem* contrarian or anything, but these people are ridiculous. I personally didn’t want a Left 4 Dead sequel already, but I don’t feel entitled to anything from Valve. Just look at the lingo this guy uses.
“The SDK[...]was EXPECTED by the community within a few weeks…”
Why exactly was the community EXPECTING anything? I imagine Valve have better things to do than cater to your every expectation.
“This is going to be an ongoing process in which we want to work with Valve. We would like to meet as many of our requests in our manifesto as possible. ”
What is this guy? A hostage-taker making demands?
“What is going to make this successful for both us and Valve is good communication”
What makes you think anyone cares about your success?
Seriously, people? Who do you think you are? What makes you think Valve owes you anything? You’re not some company coming to terms. You’re a bunch of internet no-bodys who signed an online petition which takes little to no effort.
I would bet that probably at least 60% of everyone who signed it are probably going to buy it anyway.
This is a major problem with the video gaming industry today. Whiny, petulant, demanding fanboys who think that every developer and console manufacturer should cup their balls. Hey, maybe you guys can do a TWHAG on this. Maybe I should do one and submit it to become an editor!
I’m with leviathan on this, these people are ridiculous. WE HOPE TO BE AT TALKS WITH VALVE SOON TO NEGOTIATE A TREATY, THEN THIS BLOODSHED MAY STOP.
@Leviathan902: I’m going to keep this brief. The expectations were set by valve themselves. Promises towards the game were made in several interviews. My suggestion is that you do a little bit of research on the subject.
Real mature ending by the way. /sarcasm I do have to give you a bit of credit on it though the usual insult stops at Whining.
@Shintuan
I have done plenty of research on “the subject”, such as it is. I was very excited about the original L4D and read all the interviews, here’s where you and I differ:
When the developer says “we should have SDKs out within a couple of weeks of release…”
You hear “I’m going to get my SDK within a couple of weeks and if I don’t, i’m going to start an internet petition about it”
I hear “I may get an SDK within a couple of weeks based on any number of variables”
It’s a very small sample of a very large difference. As in, you having all kinds of expectations about what you are entitled to. I however, believe I am entitled to nothing but what came in that box when I forked over my 50 bucks. Reality, my friend.
As for the “maturity” of the ending, well, I only call it like I see it. Certainly no less mature than expecting companies who need to make $$ to stay in business spend their time catering to my every whim. Hell, I stopped expecting ANYONE to cater to any of my whims when I was about 7.
I agree with @leviathan902 to an extent. With game development, promises can’t always be kept. And to think that the “demands” of the “manifesto” will be met, or really even be given a second look, strikes me as odd. Leviathan was right when he said 60% of the people in that group will still buy the game regardless, because when it comes down to it, the only people you’re really gonna hurt by not buying the game, are yourselves. Valve makes a great product with or without support after-release. Yes we’ve been spoiled with TF2, but you can’t the many to the standards of the few.
@Leviathan902: The line was “And folks can count on the sdk coming out a few weeks after launch.” A bit different and more solid. But beyond that your “EXPECTING” part was generally pretty broad as if you were dismissing things other than the sdk anyways. Sorry if Valve was a good enough company that actually believing in it’s word is now a crime. Also I sincerely doubt Valve are strapped for cash. Any who I doubt you are going to budge an inch on your stance so I’ll just be on my way to the real world again.
The Full SDK and integrated support for custom content has not been implimented into L4D1. They said the SDK would be released soon many times, and at launch I expected(similar to every other Valve game) that the custom content would be easily accessible and the game easily moddable. I think it’s reasonable for gamers to be annoyed by this.
However, this would not be a problem if L4D2 hadn’t been announced as been in development as soon as it was. If there was no announcement at all, gamers would be relatively content, waiting for the updates like they have been. It’s Valve Time.
L4D2 so soon and being in development already for over 5 months shows a lack of faith and commitment in the original title. After the post E3 update, there is not much faith that there will be any more support, and that since L4D2 is a standalone game, the original title will die quickly(unless the moddibility of L4D1 is drastically altered).
Well, some people think that they are being ripped off by this whole L4D2 situation (for reasons explained in the manifesto and comments).
Other people don’t feel like it.
The first group doesn’t like to be ripped off so they raised their voices.
The other group is calling the first group ‘whiners’ just because they don’t share their opinion.
If people feel they are being ripped off, they SHOULDN’T stay quiet, but try to do something about it.
Example: until 1989 we had communism over here, if people haven’t raised their voices and protest, I’d be still living in communism.
Exaggeration maybe, but same principle.
Why the other group of people feels the need to attack the first group of protesting people and call them whiners? We have freedom of speech that our parents fought for, so let them (Valve) know that a group of people don’t like the whole situation without attacking them and belittling their opinions.
And yes, I also joined the boycott group and decided to skip on L4D2. I’ll stick with TF2 and its great support.
@Shintuan:
I don’t think any internet argument has ever resulted in anyone changing thier opinion, ever :P
In any case, expecting Valve to be true to their word is far from a crime, but not accounting for mitigating circumstances, especially in the rapidly changing business environment seems silly. Especially with stuff that is basically free. I mean, I’m all for Valve, love them to death, but I think it’s bat-$hit crazy half the stuff they do. Therefore I treasure the stuff they do give us and don’t begrudge them the stuff they don’t. Valve spoils their fans, we can’t expect them to do so all the time and forever.
As for the $$ issue, again, they are a business, they need to make $$. Whether they’re strapped for cash or flush with it, the fact remains that they still have games to fund. I wasn’t trying to make the argument that they’re broke, just that, maybe, we shouldn’t be irritated with them for trying to make money. I felt I had gotten plenty of value from L4D, and I’m sure I will for L4D2 as well. If you’re at the point where you need mods, class updates, new maps, and constant gameplay updates to your games to feel you got your money’s worth, you must be a very dissapointed individual.
@Balerion: Extremely well said, Balerion. And since the L4D2 boycott group has over 21,000 members and growing while the pro L4D2 group sits at under 200, we fully expect them to feel threatened and insecure and call us names.
Look at Counter-Strike. CS:Source is around 5 years old now and was a totally justifiable release. Yet, there are those that hate it and will only play CS v1.6. It was nobody’s fault, but it still created division in the CS community.
We don’t want to happen with the L4D community…at least not until the L4D1 engine has reached its potential and a justifiable release of L4D2 is warranted.
L4D is a recent release, still fun, playable, and capable of upgrading to what they’re showing us in L4D2 trailers. Why the need to release L4D2 as a new $50 full game which will create a divide? It should be a fairly priced expansion to L4D instead.
@Leviathan902: Well, EA decided to ease up on the DRM of their games (if I’m correct, they didn’t use SecuROM for Sims 3, at least I read it some time ago) and I’m pretty sure it’s mostly thanks to the ‘whiners’ on the internet.
So if I were you, I wouldn’t be so sure about that first statement that internet arguement never resulted in a change of opinion of one side.
If your voice is loud enough and you are backed up by a lot of people (like a big part of the huge Sims community), you might be surprised by the outcome. ;)
After all, it’s better to protest and fail than sit quietly and do nothing.
(Man, I’m sounding really melodramatic today heh)
@Balerion:
Melodramatic indeed.
Anyway, the main crux of your point: that people shouldn’t refer to you as “whiners” is a baseless arguement. You can’t, in the same post, state that it’s a free world and it’s “OK” for you to “Whine” about L4D2 and then say that it’s not OK for other people to “Whine” about you being “Whiners”. It’s a logic loop, it goes on forever and proves nothing.
My problem isn’t with your whining in and of itself. My problem is the invalid (in my OPINION) basis of your whi..protest. Basically, you’re protesting Valve not behaving according to your expectations. As a company, it’s not reasonable to expect Valve to be constantly aware of what your expecatation are, or for them to conform to them. These aren’t your best buds sitting around in their garage waiting for your requests. They are a company. They can’t control or conform to your expectations of how they should act all the time.
Your criticism of your opponents as a group of people just calling you whiners is a straw man argument. Stop using it, it proves nothing.
And for the record: I’m not criticizing your right to protest, i’m criticizing the foundation of your protest. It’s a different thing.
Also, re: g0dFather
I would like to know how much knowledge you have of game programming in general and L4D2 specifically to make the determination that what’s in L4D2 can be done in an expansion to L4D1 when Valve themselves have specifically said it can’t.
Whew, I have WAAAY to much free time at work. Yay for over-allowing on billable hours!
@Leviathan902: Sure, you *can* call people whiners and insult them, but it only helps invalidate whatever else you say. People generally don’t tend to listen to people who are insultive for no real good reason.
You say that there’s no “basis” for our protest, even though we point out several quotes directly from Valve as to making certain statements which on which we base ourselves and which we’d like to be upheld.
You might not agree with us on this and you’re allowed to think this is silly or whatever, but this doesn’t remove the fact that we *do* actually have a basis for our claims.
Sure, Valve doesn’t owe us shit, they can do whatever they want, they’re a company, all that jazz. But that doesn’t mean we can’t make ourselves heard in an organised fashion. I find it amazing how people can seem to get so angry or annoyed that a group of gamers took the “effort” to join a group which represents their views (clicking join group hardly means you don’t have a life).
@Storm:
Dude, I never said that you couldn’t make yourselves heard in an organized fashion. Relax.
As for the “fact” that you do have a basis for your claims: There are no facts. You have no facts. You don’t like something about game. That’s not a fact. That’s an opinion. I’m challenging your opinion with my own. Which is that you all think you’re entitled to something when you are not.
Personally, I’m not amazed that people are angry or annoyed with you. You have become symbolic of the attitude of the entitled gamer, something that pisses regular gamers off because it reflects on all of us. Complaining about stuff companies are selling to you and then complaining they didn’t give you a bunch of more stuff, usually for free. You’ve lumped yourselves in with the people who complained about the Diablo III art-style. The internet ridiculed them as they do you. You shouldn’t have expected any different.
Great interview Wardrox.
It’s been hard for me to get too worked up over this issue as I have more than gotten my money’s worth out of L4D. Sure endlessly providing free content is nice; however, there is a sense of entitlement from the protesters that I’m having trouble with.
Yes they are informed consumers exercising their rights, but personally I can’t punish a company that has been so good to me over so many years.
The irony here for me is that Valve states that they will continue to support L4D as well as L4D2 when it drops. Nothing horrible has actually happened yet.
You know, it’s not like we’re actually expecting Valve to give us DLC for free, that’s not the case at all. It’d be nice, but we realise that’s not realistic. We’d have no problem at all if this content were released as an expansion pack, for the price of an expansion pack (say 20 bucks). What we have a problem with is the fact that this game will drastically reduce the player base for the first game, and effectively split the community in two.
And, despite your continuing nitpicking of the fact if we have a basis or not, we do actually have proof that Valve promised more content then they actually delivered. Whether or not you think we should expect them to hold up to that promise isn’t the point here, I’d just like to see you look at the *fact* that they did say these things:
http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html
quote from the article: “we’ll have the initial release and then we’ll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that’s the way you continue to grow a community over time.”
They released one actually new map. That’s all. I don’t actually care if you think our cause is just, but they did say this. Saying it didn’t happen is, quite frankly, ignorant.
Why the hell would they support an old game? It is just one another of their false promises!
2 games means 2 communities! That is not the way to go at all! The whole idea behind adding new content was to increase it! Not to divide it!
@Leviathan902 the SDK was expected by the community a few weeks after the launch because VALVE THEMSELVES SAID IT.if you had ever bothered entering the group page before skipping right to bashing you would have seen THIS video.
I have just one thought about L4D2.
We’re dealing with Valve. When was the last time something they promised actually got released on time? By the same token, when was the last time they wilfully screwed over their customers and fans?
BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!
It seems to me that despite selling 2.5 million copies of the original Left 4 Dead, Valve have abandoned it, with only one major content release in the 8 months since its release. This is evidenced by the fact that not only have they announced its sequel, but they’ve gone on record as saying they’ve been working on the sequel since January. If this was any other game company, I would not bat an eyelash. It’s pretty standard fare, in fact, and perhaps somewhat impressive that they’ll be delivering a sequel so soon (although, like other yearly franchises such as Tony Hawk and Madden, this could turn out to be relatively mediocre).
However, this isn’t “any ol’ game company”, this is Valve, the company which has been providing free monthly major content patches for most of its games for the over ten years I’ve supported them. With Left 4 Dead, the price tag was very high and the content was very low. In fact, many reviews of the original title made that very claim (something like “even with the variation put forth by the A.I. director, you’re still playing the same four campaigns over and over”).
Knowing this, I still purchased the game, confident that Valve would provide major content releases. I can honestly say that if it had been any other game company, it would have been very unlikely for me to make this purchase (at least until I could get a substantial discount on it). By announcing the sequel, and virtually ending development on the original title far short of my expectations, Valve has effectively tried to cash in on the trust they’ve earned over the years. If you don’t believe this is a “cash in” move, then why is the release timed perfectly to coincide with the holiday buying season?
As for the people upset that there is a group out there boycotting a product that they are interested in, grow up. Valve are big boys, they can handle a little consumer strife. They’re not going to go out of business or cancel all future development of one of their most popular franchises. Comparisons to terrorism in this very thread, really!? The boycott community is acting in an appropriate and civil manner. The work they are doing right now might get you a smaller price tag on the game you’re looking forward to most, or maybe prevent it from sinking to the mediocrity of being an annual franchise.
t-super: The problem I see in what you put just there is that it is unfair to hold this against Valve simply because of their previous track record. That is like saying you would boycott the New York Yankees because they don’t win world series’ anymore, despite how many they previously won.
Also, why does the release of one quarter of games per year coincide with the holiday buying season. Why does Call of Duty coincide the with holiday buying season. That just seems like an irrelevant arguement to me.
@Leviathan902, you mention that Valve is a business and they need to make money. This is true. I was about to pick up Left 4 Dead, either for 360 or through Steam. Not now. I will wait to see how this plays out.
Essentially Valve has probably damaged the sales potential of the first game from here on out by announcing L4D2, as many people will sit on the fence. Why buy an abandoned product now for $40, when you can get the next version for $50 in a few months?
I don’t know why the SDK has taken this long to realease. They have been working with the Source engine for about 5 years now, and they obviously used some toolsets to make the “movie” levels that shipped with the game.
@joepenn18: It’s not unfair to hold Valve to their previous standard when their reputation for post-release support is one of the deciding factors for many consumers on buying a game.
Also, consider that in some of the interviews from around the release of the original (Gabe Newell and Doug Lombardi, notably), they mention that customers can expect the “usual” Valve support.
I think that their previously held reputation of providing long-term support combined with their promise for doing just that with Left 4 Dead is a perfectly justified reason for many users to no longer support Valve, including speaking out against them. It’s called accountability.
Valve forgot one of the primary guidelines of business: it’s far more difficult to earn a new customer than it is to keep a current customer.
@joepenn18: Call of Duty coincides the with holiday buying season because it IS a franchise. Exactly the opposite of what Valve currently is and hopefully never will be.
Each release of the Call of Duty series has been quite mediocre compared with the first game. Whereas Valve’s titles are all solid games (well L4D leaves a lot to be desired thus far).
I love Valve for what they are and love seeing them do well. I don’t want to see them become the next EA hammering the same titles year after year.
@Leviathan902: Yes, Valve is a company, they can do whatever they want. They are in it for money. We all know that. But does that mean we can’t disagree with them and can’t boycott their product?
Why?
If you feel you are being ripped off, are you going to sit in the corner quietly and let it be? Without saying a word? Really?
“no basis for our protest”? I guess you are being confused now. The fact that you don’t agree with our opinion doesn’t make our opinion baseless. Especially when people in the protest group stated over and over again WHY they are protesting.
Their arguments are pretty valid, you don’t have to agree with them, that’s ok, but saying there’s no basis for the protest is simply ignorant.
If you read the manifesto of the protest group, you’ll see that they are pointing out valid concerns. After all, they for a product that is loosing its value really fast. Again, you don’t have to agree, but more than 20 000 people in like 1 week proves, that it’s a concern to a lot of people thus obviously not baseless of invalid.
I was initially very skeptical about this group when they seemed to focus on L4D2 and it’s speedy development. Now that they come across as more of a pressure group insisting on support for the original i have a greater deal of sympathy.
That being said, I doubt there will be any real result from their petition. Signing a petition is one thing but once that game is on store shelves we’re in a different situation entirely. At that point you’re talking about individuals who desire a specific product that isn’t available from another source (no pun intended). I’m as irritated as anyone by Valve’s lack of support for L4D1 compared to other titles but chances are i’ll be buying L4D2 on day one. I don’t owe Valve anything and ultimately, they don’t owe anything to me. If they make a product i want to buy and i can afford it, everything else becomes insignificant.
This goes to a broader problem with consumer advocacy in the videogame industry. A boycott of one product with a direct competitor can be highly effective because it doesn’t demand a sacrifice from the consumer. I can turn my back on Coke, buy Pepsi and still be drinking Cola. I can’t turn my back on Valve and still play an equivalent game to Left4Dead.
@Balerion84:
You don’t make any sense. Notice that in all the posts on this subject, never once did i say you couldn’t protest. In fact, quite the opposite.
All I said was that in my OPINION your buddy’s OPINION is an OPINION and not based on FACT. Also, that your OPINION is silly. Therefore my OPINION of your argument is not IGNORANT because this is what ignorant means:
1. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact
2. uninformed; unaware.
Obviously I am not ignorant as I am fully aware of your reasons, i just disagree with them. The only ignorance here is your ignorance of what ignorant means. Which I have just corrected for you.
Read and comprehend.
And regarding your last point: 20,000 people clicking “join group” does not validity make. Millions of people buy Britney Spears albums, doesn’t mean the music is good now does it?
I keep seeing the word ‘entitlement’ pop up in the pro-vale camps dismissal of the boycott. Given it is in a negative connotation, the something for nothing definition which is unfair. I am a member of the boycott and I do have a sense of entitlement in a literal form. Entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits because of rights, or by agreement. There was an implied agreement between Valve and its customers that Left 4 Dead would get support similar to TF2. Representatives and principals of Valve stated on video that Left 4 Dead would see downloadable content including new campaigns or ‘movies’, skins, monsters, etc. I don’t buy titles on launch, I never have. I wait for community reaction and response from the producer. I bought Left 4 Dead about a month ago after performing due diligence on the game. I spent $50.00 on a beta test relying on the commitments Valve had made in the press promising me that this would be a platform that would last. This was a bait and switch.
If this were any other type of product on the market people would have every right to be upset. I don’t understand why this is any different and have yet to see the other side make a coherent argument other than calling us whiners or acting as if $50.00 grows on trees. Not all of us are rolling in it.
@Leviathan902: “My problem is the invalid (in my OPINION) basis of your whi..protest.”
Well, you think our protest is based on invalid basis and because of that you are saying we are whiners. Like I said, those concerns raised by the protest group are quite valid. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make the basis invalid. That’s all I’ve said. That’s all from me.
@Balerion84:
In this case I think we’ll have to agree to disagree my friend. In your opinion the concerns are valid, in mine they are not.
@Storm:
Note that I never once denied Valve made these claims. In fact, I fully acknowledged that they did the whole freaking time. That was never the point. Now you’re just making stuff up.
Seriously dude, did you even bother to read anything I said? If not, you really don’t have any right to go around calling me ignorant do you; considering you yourself would be ignorant on the subject. If you did bother to read it then you are either just building a straw-man argument or just don’t comprehend what you read “quite frankly”.
Which is it?
To me its quite simple.
I paid $50 (which is $100 here) for this game knowing that more would be added on to it. Weapon’s, maps, maybe even a game mode? As promised by valve, but we got no updates, well no real updates.
I pay $50 for a game like Call of Duty 4, because aside from its great multiplayer it also has an extensive single player campaign. Not to mention everything has been built from scratch.
Another example is Half-Life 2, because aside from its great single player it comes with Counter-Strike: Source and Half-Life 2: Deathmatch multiplayer. Both great games.
Left 4 Dead is a cut down game, keeping it simple like Team Fotress 2, multiplayer only (well practically it is). It isnt very complex. Every level may look a bit different but there is still the same basic principals, small number of creatures and guns. To me this is worth $20 like TF2 but definitly not $50.
The bottom line (wether you agree with it or not) i feel ripped off, i feel tricked into buying a game which is seemingly only 1/2 completed for the price of a fully completed game.
To me its the same as a sales person telling me that im buying a 1TB HDD and charging me for it and then giving me a 500GB deliberately. In real life you’d give it right back and never shop there again.
Want me to be honest?
ok, i live on brazil, $50 = r$100 right now, i may be a litle outdated but i guess american basic salary goes around $2000, brazilian base salary goes around $400.
now, my nvidia card, geforce 9600gt wich costs around $100 i payed like $400 an entire base salary, my entire computer costed r$2000. my salary is more than the base i get 3 base salaries wich is r$1200, but to keep my internet and my car car i spend almost all of it coz everithing here is so expensive and still i love games.
thats why wen theres some games thats worth to play only once and its offline, i just download it. yeah im not afraid to say it, coz these companies has no representatives here, so we gota buy on dollar and the price tags always comes doubled or tripled a playstation 3 game costs r$150 each and hence only a few has it around here, u gota be rich to spend r$150 on crappy games like assasins creed and FEAR 2.
so, i used to play counter strike, then team fortress, i payed for all those, coz they are good games that worth my investiment, coz of all updates and the multplayer support(i can only have a good online experience with the original ones)and i mcan get updates faster than with a pirated version, yeah that worke with team fortress, but not with l4d, since the updates were only few, the pirated version was on par with the original one, and all the ppl who hadnt payed r$100 played the same content as me using the garena service, it sux doesnt it?
and now they come with this idiotized version of the game? with idiotic characters, and idiotic music and suposedly containing all the updates and stuff that convinced me to spend r$100 on left for dead?
no way, not again, this time im gona play it on garena, coz i doubt ill be playing such an idiotized game for long, ill end up playing l4d1 again, and stay with it.
now, i really think thats not valves fault, it Micro$ofts fault, it will be the first valve game to come to x360 b4 pc version, and they didnt anounced l4d2 for pc yet, dont u see? the game is idiotized to attend the taste of consoles casual idiotic gamers, that has happened to elder scrolls 4 dont u remember? morrowind was a fully fledged rpg for hardcore gamers, but oblivion is an idiotized game for dumb ppl to play, and these are the console casual players.
fuck M$.
IMO, Hakunushi, I find your arguement to be inisgnificant due to the money symbol in Microsoft.
@Leviathan902: You actually did deny that they said it in your first comments, well you at least denied them having promised it.
Above all I notice you skirting around the expectations we hold gaming companies to. You compare them to other business and such thinking they are the same but they aren’t.
Video game companies are often bolstered or hindered by their fanbase, look at companies like atari and EA. EA produces the same crap over and over again and their sales and recognition dwindles because of it, we don’t expect EA to release a stellar title or do anything more than movie tie-ins and sports games. On the other end we have valve, who has proven they love their fans and desire their fans to love them. They give us deals on games, offer them for download and support them for a long healthy duration.
To not expect them to continue to do this would be the equavilant of banking with a certain company and expecting them to keep your money safe and secure, and for 10 years they do but one day you deposite money and they inform you all of your money is gone, even though you put your faith in their past ten years of loyal service.
They did infact make promises of updates which may be upheld or may not, I can assure you the tone I got from the interviews even at release was that they’d be focused on this game and not imediately pushing out a sequel.
This is actually a real affront to me as this was my first experience with a valve game, and I never heard a single drop of ill will about valve until this point. Its putting faith into a company with a good reputation and being let down, which again is not the industry standard.
Here is a very simple analogy, for all the people who disagree with this boycott.
If you pay a contractor to build you a house, the contractor puts up 4 walls, puts a roof on it, some doors and windows even, the house is now fully functional (to some extent)
2 months laters the contractor returns and installs a kitchen, or bathroom or whatever. Now that would make you angry right, having to wait 2 months to get more functionality out of your house?
Then the contractor does not return to finish your house and he says ‘Oh I’m sorry but we’ve just begun building a new house so we won’t continue on yours, but your more then welcome to buy our new house’
Basically that’s all valve did, they gave us a functional product (to some extent) later they added a little bit more functionality (which I wouldn’t call DLC, it was a lot of bug fixes, finally able to play the other 2 campaigns on versus (something the community already fixed btw with their own patch, an addition of 1(!) new map, and 15 already in the game with different encoding (survival mode) that didn’t even took that much effort to make)
Then valve announces a sequel, which they justify by saying ‘well we actually put so much content in this, we can’t call it DLC, it’s just to much’ content of which they previously claimed it would be added to the original game, so we can safely assume that valve is no longer planning on putting said content in the original, what kind of a company would support a game they already are developing a sequel for, not to mention that any idea’s they had are already put into that sequel.
The community feels that the original game was just a beta, that valve made us pay for, it was a beta-test to see how people would like they game and where they could improve. Now months later they announce a sequel with all the content valve claimed with go into the original as DLC plus changes made to the game by suggestions from the community.
Now please tell me I am wrong, but that’s pretty much how it really is, also taking into account that how fast valve started developing this sequel, valve normally takes time for stuff like that, remember how long we had to wait for a sequel to half-life?
I’m not opting for free content, valve made a lot of effort, and I’m willing to pay, but not the price of a full-game! and I believe I have the right to think that since the original wasn’t a full game.
And just take a look at left 4 dead 2, what did they really add? They patched the AI director to make the replay value last longer, they add some weapons, change the look of characters, make a campaign with REAL stories, change some music, change night to daylight, and they add a few new special infected (which in my opinion is done to balance versus) either all things valve intended as DLC for the original or suggestions from the community.
Even valve’s statement ‘this is to much content to release it as DLC’ strikes me as odd, it’s almost like saying, we also feel left 4 dead 1 lakced content, so we made a whole lot more, but to much to just give it to you, well no problem, make it an expansion then, graphics haven’t change so it should be fully compitabel with each other, pay about 25-30 dollars and everything is ok.
@Leviathon902
The reason companies answer to their consumers, is a very basic principle. No consumers = no company. Less consumers = less money for company.
Glad I could present this basic elementary concept of economics to you. Please feel free to respond back with any other questions on how the world functions.
Good piece, our Glorious Leader!!!!!!!
I would buy it.
@Leviathan902:
Yes and your not bias at all.
Your an idiot for one and you dont know what your talking about.
2nd, the reason people were expecting the SDK was because Valve told the comunity it would be released within a few weeks of the release of l4d.
3rd, If Valve doesnt respect the people who are giving them there money, they’re gonna go out of bussiness. Valve makes a good amount of cash bcuz the gaming comunity respects them and there games.
4th, the reason so many people are mad is bcuz they were expecting more content to be release after the launch of l4d1, like tf2. Alot of people didn’t think this game was worth $50 (after all it only had 4maps) but Valve promised more content after the release of the title. So what happend was alot of people went out and bought the game, expecting new content to be released later on… Now we hear that were going to have to spend another $50 to get this content, when Valve told us we would get free content (Maps, Weapons, Monsters and so on).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQWylFmqnwM
Now personally i don’t care if they charged us 20-30 dollars for l4d2 as an expansion pack because I PERSONALY got my monies worth out of the title (something like 200hours) But i feel sorry for the people who were lied to, and thought there would be new content and went out and bought the game believing this. Anyways back to the point, there is no way i will pay full price for this, when it was promised to be free.
But ill look at it from a bussiness point of view and i can see that Valve is a company and needs to make revenue, but theres no way this should be released as a full fledged game, when its just an expanision pack; Its exactly like l4d1, with added maps and weapons. If Valve isn’t willing to release this for free, this should at the very most, be released as an expansion pack becuase thats all it is.
@Andrew
This is old news man. Nobody’s posted here, for like, two days.
None of your Boycotter’s “Demands” will be met. Your a bunch of Whining children that expect that if you start a tiny group of people, Yes tiny, Then your “Demands” will be met. Honestly who do you think you guys are? Your not important to Valves sales at all, and your not going to effect them. Valve will still sell 3X more the copies they did of L4D. The pre-orders of L4D2 are Twice of what they were of L4D’s pre-orders at this time.. It looks like your “Boycotting” or bitching in other words, isn’t working. Heh know what 41,000 people are compared to the Real fans of the game? Your whole group is like a little microscopic hair on my ass, and just like that hair on my ass, you will accomplish nothing but just be there, and continue to be annoying.